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Dienstag, 23. Juli 2013, 10:52

EDIT by Paladin: Discussion from this thread: [Contest-Worklog] Ares

fantastic design, i love it, i wouldnt even paint it, would just leave it as it is , but i am sure you have more good ideas coming
:D with paint you wouldnt even see that its wood.
the only thing that is disturbing, but thats just a philosophy difference, not critic, is that its lasercut and not hand cut.
handcut can never be done repeatedly with such precision. i think automatisation will kill the modding scene soon.
like i said, its a statement and philosophy, not critic, (before everone starts criticising my words again, just because i said what they dont want to hear) :|
i love your idea and design. well done mate..



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Dienstag, 23. Juli 2013, 11:34

fantastic design, i love it, i wouldnt even paint it, would just leave it as it is , but i am sure you have more good ideas coming
:D with paint you wouldnt even see that its wood.
the only thing that is disturbing, but thats just a philosophy difference, not critic, is that its lasercut and not hand cut.
handcut can never be done repeatedly with such precision. i think automatisation will kill the modding scene soon.
like i said, its a statement and philosophy, not critic, (before everone starts criticising my words again, just because i said what they dont want to hear):|
i love your idea and design. well done mate..

Thank you. The goal is to cover all the wood. :)

I know that you don't like the CNC, but CNC can't create a case by itself-it can't design it or put all pieces together. CNC can't make you a modder-your ideas and how you make them real makes you a modder, isn't that right? CNC is just a tool like saw, pilar drill, dremel etc.

That is my point of view. ;)

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Dienstag, 23. Juli 2013, 12:14

I know that you don't like the CNC, but CNC can't create a case by itself-it can't design it or put all pieces together. CNC can't make you a modder-your ideas and how you make them real makes you a modder, isn't that right? CNC is just a tool like saw, pilar drill, dremel etc.
hey mate, no offense meant but here is my answer. i love CNCs but my philosophy says if you use them its the easy way out.
I hope this wont blow up into a big discussion again, folks here dont like me proving and laying down my arguments and points.

again, i didnt mean to de-value the work and design you have at all, i love it, as you said you had to design it and make it and have the idea etc.. i respect that more than you can imagine.
what i meant though was, if we take your example of dremel and saws and drill etc.. of course they are also tools, but they have to be guided and held stable and you dont loose that certain human touch because no two parts are the same. where as a CNC makes them one after eachother after you have designed and programmed them in. each one is asplitting image of the last, exact to the tenth of a millim. it looses the human touch at that point and makes our otherwise artistic creation an industrially manufactured piece of equipment.
its like a drum machine, always play the same sequence over and over again same dynamic and pressure on the snare and toms and base and cymbals, not like a real human drummer. each hit varies. of course for mass production thats ok, but i personally wouldnt want a sequencer playing the drums when i go to a rock concert.
I hope you understand what i am saying. your work is great and i love your design, cant say that enough. the CNC makes it look easy even though its not, and makes it look like a kit one can buy.
having said all that, i still wish i had a CNC, a 3d printer and waterjet.. :D but not for my art..


anyway, what color will it have and whats the paintjob plan..



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Mittwoch, 24. Juli 2013, 12:11

I know that you don't like the CNC, but CNC can't create a case by itself-it can't design it or put all pieces together. CNC can't make you a modder-your ideas and how you make them real makes you a modder, isn't that right? CNC is just a tool like saw, pilar drill, dremel etc.
hey mate, no offense meant but here is my answer. i love CNCs but my philosophy says if you use them its the easy way out.
I hope this wont blow up into a big discussion again, folks here dont like me proving and laying down my arguments and points.

again, i didnt mean to de-value the work and design you have at all, i love it, as you said you had to design it and make it and have the idea etc.. i respect that more than you can imagine.
what i meant though was, if we take your example of dremel and saws and drill etc.. of course they are also tools, but they have to be guided and held stable and you dont loose that certain human touch because no two parts are the same. where as a CNC makes them one after eachother after you have designed and programmed them in. each one is asplitting image of the last, exact to the tenth of a millim. it looses the human touch at that point and makes our otherwise artistic creation an industrially manufactured piece of equipment.
its like a drum machine, always play the same sequence over and over again same dynamic and pressure on the snare and toms and base and cymbals, not like a real human drummer. each hit varies. of course for mass production thats ok, but i personally wouldnt want a sequencer playing the drums when i go to a rock concert.
I hope you understand what i am saying. your work is great and i love your design, cant say that enough. the CNC makes it look easy even though its not, and makes it look like a kit one can buy.
having said all that, i still wish i had a CNC, a 3d printer and waterjet..:Dbut not for my art..

anyway, what color will it have and whats the paintjob plan..

Why not to start discussion? This is forum,and forums are made for discussions. :D

But, if i look from your point of view-what about electric tools? That means that if you use non-power tools, your work is better than someone else's work made with power-tools. That is the same logic used in CNC><electric handheld tools discussion. Am I right? ;)

Color that I am going to use if matte black. I am not 100 % sure should I use some red for details.

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Mittwoch, 24. Juli 2013, 13:14

Why not to start discussion? This is forum,and forums are made for discussions.

But, if i look from your point of view-what about electric tools? That means that if you use non-power tools, your work is better than someone else's work made with power-tools. That is the same logic used in CNC>
Color that I am going to use if matte black. I am not 100 % sure should I use some red for details.
yeah you are right but somehow every time i start one, someone gets their knickers in a twist,
as long as we are all still friends at the end of the day then i rejoice eevry healthy kick ass discussion. love picking literal fights :-)
most folks dont want to discuss but just tell what you did wrong because of personal taste and unforesight. how should someone know what your unwritten concept and unseen ideas are till you are finished.
ok here goes, itl be long again. :P


yes electric power tools are a good example, but dont forget if you do not guide them then you will for example, bore rotten holes and cut un even un straight lines and cuts, they have to be held and guided. a computer base xyz coordinated machine does not.
make a straight ling 20 metres long with a ruler it will not be straight. make a it in the computer with a digital ruler it will be exact to the 100th of a mm. sterility cold and unforgivingly exact.dont get me wrong, i am not against such devices in a whole,
dont get me wrong i love automatic tools, otherwise i would not be what the mainstream call a computer freak.
not at all actually.
i just think they kill artists, and artists we are. at least thats what i think of myself and most modders i know.
its like scanning in a photos and changing the light or contrast ratio. you didnt make or paint the picture,
is scanning and twiddling around with the colors etc.. art. not in my eyes, is copy and paste art, no way.
i also have a plotter cutter for stickers and so forth. i use dremel and drills and even started building a cnc.
but my art is only when i feel the tool and not program it. everything else is for my philosophiy and i mean only myself as an artist a sacrilegium against my personal philosophy. anyway,
in a nutshell, as soon as you can sit back and let a machine do the work, then its not art. thats it summarised in my eyes.
paint a car with a spray pistol by hand, or let it be painted by a robot, which is harder, which is human. can a robot improvise and change its programm according to free will in the heat of the moment to adapt to a new insprational emaotion, no sireee it cannot, can you with the spray pistol, yes sir you can. thats the differnece between art and industry. :-)
for me, i can only say even though the industyr cannot live without art, it is doing its best to kill off artists.
indutry without art is function, industry with art design. art is handmade.
thats why i do my best to make un conventional and un precedented forms and artifacts like case mods etc..


another example which i always like to use is computer games conceptual designers. are they artists. oh yes they are.
they can only use a PC programm to draw if they have the imagination and skills to draw something like they do on paper, which they.
just imagine you are sitting with someone and he say, what do you mean and you say you cannot draw it,,,,,,,,, because you dont have your PC.
then you are the artist but just a PC addict who can only copy and paste and never made an own texture or so forth.


now one could say, i paint my picures in a pc programm, good argument, but their is also a hitch. try painting on a drwaing screen which ic commonly used now, a painting. and when you are finished, without using copy and paste , try to draw the exact image again. not possible.
the first would be art, the second would be automated industry. smeone painted it as an artist, and the other buys it or prints it as an exact copy.


what came forst ART, so once again art sustains industry, but industry kills the artist because he cannot make the picture as good as eachother, while the printer can. the first stroke the first cut, athats art, the others which are copied and automated are not made by us, and will never be unequal to the initial artistic first made part. thus are easyilier made.
whew....
enough examples, its your turn now. :thumbsup:



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Mittwoch, 24. Juli 2013, 13:57

i just think they kill artists, and artists we are.


So you think no 'CNC-Modders' should consider themselves as artists? Just a rhetoric question, but I thin kthe border between art and automation is not clearly set. If you use a display to show the exact coordinates on your milling machine, it is almost possible to create 2 parts that are exactly the same. That is still handwork. And what about using a remote control and just press a button to control the milling machine? Is this still handwork? Sure, it is no automation, but there is neither any feeling of what the handwork would be or what the CNC would do better.
In my opinion, the CNC is a useful tool, but think about what the feeling is, when you are finishing a mod or con. And you know how much work you had to finish it. There is a clear difference between designing parts in the CAD, and having them cut, or putting a lot of work and time in manufacturing them by yourself. I think it is a personal decision, but no need to descriminate modders who use automation (not that you do that Ali, only my opinion). So IMHO the CNC is not a bad tool, only a shortcut to get the result. Wether it is a good or bad way - I don't want to choose. But CNCs, 3D printers and those devices are probably things that modders use in 50 years in the manner we use the dremel today. Time will tell.

But from another point of view, I think that using your dremel and other 'handwork tools' would have made a not that accurate result in that project, and a lot of time might got lost at dealing with problems like a wrong hole, so even the costs would have been higher (more wood to buy). But modders should do what they consider as right. So make your thing, it looks pretty awesome!

patricifiko99

PS: @Ali: What about opening a new thread for those interesting ethic discussions. I would be interested in the others opinions!

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Mittwoch, 24. Juli 2013, 15:26

PS: @Ali: What about opening a new thread for those interesting ethic discussions. I would be interested in the others opinions!
hi pat, yes maybe i should, but i dont think many folks are interested in this subject. it just accidently came up here.
In my opinion, the CNC is a useful tool, but think about what the feeling is, when you are finishing a mod or con. And you know how much work you had to finish it. There is a clear difference between designing parts in the CAD, and having them cut, or putting a lot of work and time in manufacturing them by yourself. I think it is a personal decision, but no need to descriminate modders who use automation (not that you do that Ali, only my opinion). So IMHO the CNC is not a bad tool, only a shortcut to get the result. Wether it is a good or bad way - I don't want to choose. But CNCs, 3D printers and those devices are probably things that modders use in 50 years in the manner we use the dremel today. Time will tell.
in my opinion the cnc is a great tool too. even more i would say its a world changing fantastic tool. am as you have hopefully recognised in now way discriminating the cnc users.
just expressing that i would like to see handwork. but also while saying, thats just my opinion.

tell me honestly pat, if you were in a jury and had to give ten marks to each modder and you had 2xs the exact same mod,
one grill was made by mr.CNC perfect to the tenth of a mm, each groove nook and cranny, and i mean 100s of them all made in 20 minutes but perfectly symetric and great.
and on the other hand mr. do it myself moron, who used a saw or similar tool where you know he took all day to get the same or at least a good result, even though not all exactly the same.

who would you give more marks, perfection made by automation or almost perfect made with sweat and blood in pain taking hours to achieve the similar if not exactly same result.
who tried more or who produced better. am not talking about the industry, lets even leave out art, am talking now specifically for example just about contests and competitions and modder madness challenges etc..
i hope for an answer to my question.


do i believe that we will all soon be using automated machines, taken for granted like the cnc to dremel today, yes i do. a laser printer costed a 1000 euros a few years ago,
now we can pick one up for peanuts. the machines all have their justification but are not just towards the efforts made by artists.
I dont know how the others see it but everything i create is art. you dont have to study art to be an artist. not every singer can really sing, but great singers also dont become msuciians all the time, they can still sing though. i dont see it just as mods and technology, i call it art. who said art may not have a function and must hang on th wall.
give it a fancy name even though its unrecognisable. nope it is art. but as soon as i say, it came out of a machine, well judge for yourself whether you would use that as an argument why one should see you as an artist.
i hope for an answer to my question.

every time i have tried to express a point in WMI then the time always came when someone said we should open a new thread or stop the discussion, so am waiting for the moderators to intervene here too. :D



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Mittwoch, 24. Juli 2013, 15:32

How much Automation till its not ART anymore

hi WMI vielleicht könnte ihr das diskussion von ARES raus hier verschieben.
Scheint doch einige zu interessieren.
ALAN-LEE, RENEGADE, The Public Enemy...
i have opened this new thread for all those who want to express their hate against my opinions. may the war begin.. :thumbsup:



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Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Alan-Lee« (24. Juli 2013, 15:37)


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Mittwoch, 24. Juli 2013, 15:32

@Alan-Lee:

You forget that drawing you input in CNC is guiding. Machine is making the stuff that I draw in file. So I guided that machine. ;)

About artist part-what do you think about industrial designers? They are using machines, and they are artists. What about digital art? Would ou tell that paersong who draw on graphical tablet is not an artist because he can erase his mistakes or multiply his work and share it online?

And only one thing-you can't make the same thing all over again. At least not if you don't have excat the same material. Industry can do it-I can't. This wood is really not the same in every square meter :)

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Mittwoch, 24. Juli 2013, 15:35

i have opened a new thread for all those who want to express their hate against my opinions. may the war begin.. :thumbsup:

@ pranja i said something about what you just mentioned. actually i said just about everything. thes rest in the new thread please



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Mittwoch, 24. Juli 2013, 15:37

Ok, then lets check that new thread. :D

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Mittwoch, 24. Juli 2013, 16:32

Ok, mach ich nachher gleich.
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Mittwoch, 24. Juli 2013, 16:57

As long as your design is 100 % your, it doesn't matter what you use.

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Mittwoch, 24. Juli 2013, 17:47

All moved ;)
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Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013, 11:30

In my opinion, cnc's and Lasers are tools like any other.

Its all about the human behind. Icant draw by hand my own, so i've to use sketch up. Am I creativ? Am I an Artist?

Yes! because if I see something I like, I'm getting inspired and interpred it my way and use every tool I need to creat my "vision".

Zitat

Von Alan-Lee
tell me honestly pat, if you were in a jury and had to give ten marks to each modder and you had 2xs the exact same mod,


one grill was made by mr.CNC perfect to the tenth of a mm, each
groove nook and cranny, and i mean 100s of them all made in 20 minutes
but perfectly symetric and great.


and on the other hand mr. do it myself moron, who used a saw or
similar tool where you know he took all day to get the same or at least a
good result, even though not all exactly the same.



who would you give more marks, perfection made by automation or
almost perfect made with sweat and blood in pain taking hours to achieve
the similar if not exactly same result.


who tried more or who produced better. am not talking about the
industry, lets even leave out art, am talking now specifically for
example just about contests and competitions and modder madness
challenges etc..


i hope for an answer to my question.
Thats a big Problem! But not because one had the better tools or less time.

IMHO Its just the question was it his own Creativity or just copy and paste!
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Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013, 12:36

IMHO, there's no point to avoid using CNC for say repetitive works like milling a metal grill where you have to mill 20, 50, 100 grooves with a 3 mm gap between.
As a matter of fact you have toolmarks, no matter if you use a handtool, a tablesaw or a cnc. The key is that you have to work with your hand pretty hard to get a smooth finish, an that's not possible with a CNC, that's the key to modding.

However, I wouldn't use CNC to make a full case, like designing everything on a pc, milling it with a cnc and putting it all together isn't modding any more, it's industrial building.

But that's jm2c.

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Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013, 13:42

However, I wouldn't use CNC to make a full case, like designing everything on a pc, milling it with a cnc and putting it all together isn't modding any more, it's industrial building.

But that's jm2c.
and that my dear friend is exactly what i mean, that says it all. thats why i called this thread how much automation till its not art.
why mill everything, then you may as well do what they call montage modding in deutsch. just go and buy everything you need and stick it together.

@ all, i have nothing against cnc machines and automation, but i just think they should not be used when competing against each other. its not a fair fight then.
its like shooting against someone who is just throwing stones.



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Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013, 14:00

Zitat

Von Alan-Lee
why mill everything, then you may as well do what they call montage modding in deutsch. just go and buy everything you need and stick it together.

Its not what we are talking about! Everybody can buy and put together parts! But to design somthing and use better Technik then anyone else is absolutly different! With a CNC or Laser (or whatever comes next!)You'll have to create a modell with every part like everybodey else. Its just like you said "The easy Way".

Zitat

Von Alan-Lee
@ all,
i have nothing against cnc machines and automation, but i just think
they should not be used when competing against each other. its not a
fair fight then.

its like shooting against someone who is just throwing stones.
At this point I'll have to agree with Alan.
Maybe for the next Competition, its better to define, how much automation is allowed.

But for an ordinary Workblog, why dont use helpfull tools? And like we see on the "Ares-Projekt" even a Laser-Cutter cant paint a case ;)
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Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013, 14:15

But for an ordinary Workblog, why dont use helpfull tools? And like we see on the "Ares-Projekt" even a Laser-Cutter cant paint a case
agreed, but what if he had a painting robot that automatically measured the distance to the case side being painted, regulated the airflow and paintflow and thus painted it great with that.

once again, everyone maybe thinks i am against development, by the powers, i also use and love cool stuff. i dont live in a cave and fetch my water at the local creek.
but competitions should be fair, thats fairer and easier for the judges too, and most of all for the competitors.



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Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013, 16:54

Folks, since years we have a category in the rating system which is called "Handwerkliches". This is exactly what is used, so that someone who made everything by hand gets more points in this category compared to someone who made everything by CNC.
So surely this is still a fair fight! It's NOT shooting on someone who is throwing stones. There is no need to define how much automation is allowed, because by the category "Handwerkliches", this is already covered.

And my personal opinion: "Art" has absolutely nothing to do with how much automation is used. Art is a basically a mind-thing, and is not defined by how the result was achieved.
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